Degeneration: hate it or love it?

Monster Mash wrote:

Degeneration was a great film. I wouldn't have minded seeing one or two more creatures, but for Capcom's first attempt, it was pretty good.

It wasn't Capcom's first attempt, actually. 4D-Executer was the first CG film they made.

Monster Mash wrote:

On the topic of the franchise' ruination, all of the older RE games are classic, but that style of gameplay had run its course, at least in its pure form. The formula set by the first game was awesome, but the only way that it could have been expanded was just by making the games even longer, the puzzles even more complex, and having even more backtracking. Past a certain point, I think it gets a bit ridiculous. I think CV was the farthest that style of gameplay could be taken before it gets too much.
Also, the old style had a number of distinct drawbacks. For one thing, simple things like turning around were unnecessarily laborious, and the rapid changes in camera angle that occurred from going from one scene to the next could be incredibly disorienting and potentially disastrous in the middle of a fight. Dodging was helpful in RE3, but very arbitrary. The prerendered backgrounds looked great, but a number of them were just uneccessarly and the delays in going from one scene to the next could be almost maddening (I'm thinking of when you're running through the train at the end of RE2, before you fight Mr. X). CV fixed some of these problems, but not all of them. The third-person style made boss battles simplistic and somewhat anti-climactic at times. This might have been tolerated by older gamers, but you can bet that the latest generation would not have stood for them; RE had to evolve if it wanted to survive.
RE4 and 5 fixed alot of these problems and allowed for players to have a great deal more control over the chracters, opening up to things like the multiplayer features that would not have been nearly as good in third-person. I think that RE5 took the FPS style too far and removed some key RE trademarks, like backtracking to previous locations. As to the "horror" element, there were some scenes in the last two games that were quite chilling.

THIS.

Monster Mash, you are a wise man indeed.

But what do you guys think of the save system and the lack of puzzles?

And ok, maybe RE had to change, but the games will never ever be as good as they were.

ThomVD wrote:

And ok, maybe RE had to change, but the games will never ever be as good as they were.

That's from your perspective and your personal opinion.

Personally, I think RE is becoming stronger.

I respect your opinion, but I just can't understand it. I don't see any improvements except for that they made it easier to play (I don't think that it is an improvement, but others do I think) and that they aimed for shooter fans.

ThomVD wrote:

But what do you guys think of the save system and the lack of puzzles?

And ok, maybe RE had to change, but the games will never ever be as good as they were.

The lack of puzzles in RE5 was dissappointing. There are those doors where you have to find the multiple key parts, but they were so painfully obvious that they really don't count as puzzles.

I think RE is keeping a steady line. I know RE6 is going to be "ambitious" but I don't think they want to stray too far.

I don't care for the puzzles as much (I have them enough in other games) but having one or two wouldn't hurt. I loved the typewriters and although RE4 still had checkpoints I think the typewriters were a really nice touch. I felt a surge of nostalgy after seeing the first one in the game.

@Monster Mash: I forgot to mention that although I agree on you that RE had to evolve, I don't think the older games were that tedious. The gameplay was just fine.

ThomVD wrote:

I respect your opinion, but I just can't understand it. I don't see any improvements except for that they made it easier to play (I don't think that it is an improvement, but others do I think) and that they aimed for shooter fans.

As long as the game is fun, I enjoy playing it, and it has some semblance of what makes a RE game (which is pretty much guns and monsters), I'm good.

RE4 and 5 has all of those things for me.

The puzzles is what I loved most of the old games. Finding keys and items and find the correct places for them, combining items, exploring new areas once you've found a key. I've said it too often but I think REmake has that kind of gameplay perfected. That was RE for me, it was never about the action.

@Ravior: I enjoyed them too, but they didn't improve and they certainly threw a lot of good stuff away.

Btw, RE4 lacked puzzles just as much as RE5.

Mass Distraction wrote:

@Monster Mash: I forgot to mention that although I agree on you that RE had to evolve, I don't think the older games were that tedious. The gameplay was just fine.

It mostly was, but a number of the scenes (prerendered areas where you could move around freely), were either too small, too straightforward with no items or other features, or awkwardly shaped. It wasn't a major problem, but it could be a hairpulling hassle at times and dragged things out too much.

ThomVD wrote:

It's much scarier if you don't see the enemies and still hear them. They made RE4 and 5 too easy to control because of the camera.

For one thing, if your character can see it, the player should be able to see it too. And making games easier to play is no drawback. Come on, games should not be hard because of the controls. The day developers start making their controls bad to make the game difficult for us is the day I stop gaming.

@MonsterMash: RE4 and 5 are third person games. Not first person.

IMO making a game easier just for the bad players is just sad. I've never had any problems with the controls so they aren't bad. It just takes some time to get used to. If somebody doesn't have patience, it's their problem that they can't play the games.

Monster Mash wrote:

Mass Distraction wrote:

@Monster Mash: I forgot to mention that although I agree on you that RE had to evolve, I don't think the older games were that tedious. The gameplay was just fine.

It mostly was, but a number of the scenes (prerendered areas where you could move around freely), were either too small, too straightforward with no items or other features, or awkwardly shaped. It wasn't a major problem, but it could be a hairpulling hassle at times and dragged things out too much.

Huh... I never encountered such places. Or, at least, none of them made me feel like that.

@Thom: RE4 still had more puzzling and item combining than RE5 (which had none). I would like to see a couple of old timey puzzles again but not a crap ton, which could possibly ruin the flow of the game.

I do want a crap ton of puzzles. Who cares it ruins the flow of the game, it's fun. I love puzzles. RE doesn't have to be fast-paced.

RE4's puzzles were so unnecessary. They were extremely short and easy. Just like the typewriters, they were just used to make it look like a old style RE game.

The old controls weren't bad per se, but they were unnecessarily obtuse. Streamlining games' controls is always a good thing. It was an improvement.

But the controls didn't change at all, just the camera. I don't care which camera view RE has. I always loved the angles so I don't see why they should change it. Look at REmake/RE0's graphics. Better than RE4 (and maybe even better than non-HD RE5) because of the pre-rendered backgrounds.

Mass Distraction wrote:

Huh... I never encountered such places. Or, at least, none of them made me feel like that.

I'm basically referring to the parts where you would run for three seconds, wait for two seconds for the next screen to load, run four seconds, wait another two seconds, run another three seconds, and so on. It just got really tedious when you were trying to get somewhere fast.

ThomVD wrote:

RE4's puzzles were so unnecessary. They were extremely short and easy. Just like the typewriters, they were just used to make it look like a old style RE game.

The one where you had to turn the knob to get the jewel inside took some thinking, as did the one where you were playing as Ashley (at least the first two times that I did it). I want puzzles, but nothing like the water level balancing one in RE3; I haven't been able to beat that one without looking up online how to do it. I want to play a game, not feel like I'm in math or science class.

I do not just mean puzzles like a slider/water/mirror puzzle, but also like finding keys etc. If you think about for example CVX. What were you doing the whole game. Certainly not just shooting everyone. You found the emblem, used the switch to open a door, found the extinguisher, extinguished the fire, found the briefcase with the undetectable metal, you used the 3D scanner to make the undetectable copy of the emblem, then you used the emblem to open the prison door, etc etc. That is the gameplay I want to see.

ThomVD wrote:

I do not just mean puzzles like a slider/water/mirror puzzle, but also like finding keys etc. If you think about for example CVX. What were you doing the whole game. Certainly not just shooting everyone. You found the emblem, used the switch to open a door, found the extinguisher, extinguished the fire, found the briefcase with the undetectable metal, you used the 3D scanner to make the undetectable copy of the emblem, then you used the emblem to open the prison door, etc etc. That is the gameplay I want to see.

Now that I can understand; RE5's "puzzles" in that regard were pathetic (did we really need the marshland map?) What you're proposing is good since it allows for figuring things out while sprinkling in action sequences along the way.

As long as the gameplay is like I described, the ink ribbon system is in it and the story is good, I don't care about the rest.

Monster Mash wrote:

Mass Distraction wrote:

Huh... I never encountered such places. Or, at least, none of them made me feel like that.

I'm basically referring to the parts where you would run for three seconds, wait for two seconds for the next screen to load, run four seconds, wait another two seconds, run another three seconds, and so on. It just got really tedious when you were trying to get somewhere fast.

I never had any load issues. The game smoothly changed the screen to another in an instant. Only the door opening sequences took their time but at least we got the animation. Sometimes it would stuck there for a second before starting to open the door but nothing too serious. Outbreak on the other hand had some real issues with the load times.

Oh, and Thom... Seems like we have a total agreement here

So you also think the gameplay should be like I said ?

ThomVD wrote:

So you also think the gameplay should be like I said ?

I wouldn't mind the puzzling and writing with typewriters again, if that's what you meant. Keep the camera with that gameplay and I'm pleased. I wouldn't mind having to find my stuff either as compared to getting them from enemies.

Awesome, finally an agreement. Btw, sorry for spoiling the beginning of CVX .