Concerning Church and State

Spike Reaver wrote:

Hope you guess my name.

FATHER!!!!!

halestride wrote:

FATHER!!!!!

Yes son. It's me.

NiteKrawler wrote:

I wrote a note on Facebook and felt the need to share it here.


"A lot of talk has been going on around the Internet and in the halls of our government about the separation of church and state. This talk has undoubtedly been ignited by the recent tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School. All around the Internet you see pictures, quotes, interviews and opinion pieces seemingly insinuating that if our government would allow religion and God within our public school system, this kind of disgrace could be avoided. The facts are disturbingly different. This piece is not written in an attempt to further a cause. No, this piece is written to halt one. The cause of removing the separation of church and state, shamelessly launched off of the Sandy Hook tragedy by the political right, is a cause of nothing more than treason. No patriot in their right mind would allow such a cause to live on. Sadly, in our potentially grand and free country there exist a great many patriots who are not in their right minds. A great many patriots religiously blinded to the hopes, needs and dreams of others. A great many patriots too busy to notice anything outside of the reach of their own small circle. If you are still reading this, there is a good chance that you are one of these misguided, well-meaning patriots and I implore you to read on.

Our constitution, the very document our country was founded upon, clearly states that the separation of church and state is essential to the well-being of the commonwealth. Our founding fathers ardently agreed on this point, yet many of us cannot. Please understand that this separation protects everyone in this country from the oppression of the minority by the majority. Yes, as an open atheist, I am a part of a minority. In the United States, if you are a Christian, you are a part of a majority. This is why the separation of church and state holds such little meaning to Christians. Please take a moment to look ahead. Islam is expanding exponentially. Many other religions are growing much faster than Christianity, and Islam will probably overcome Christianity before many of our lives are over. In this Islam dominated world, if we do not have the protection of the separation of church and state, we all run the risk of being oppressed under a theocracy enforcing Sharia Law! Forced prayer to a God and prophet you disagree with. Forced pilgrimages to Mecca. Forced payment of the zakat. Forced fasting during the month of Ramadan. The rights of women that have been earned with blood, gone. You see, the separation of church and state does not only protect some, it protects us all.

Should prayer be allowed in schools? Yes. Should prayer be recognized and enforced by any school? No. Should everyone be allowed to worship who and what they choose? Yes. Should our government establishments partake in this same devotion? No. As a true patriot, I am in favor of keeping the separation of church and state. Without it, any of us could become victims of a terrible fate. I hope this note finds someone and makes them think. If you have read this whole note, I hope you are reflecting on the content of it, rather than on my personal beliefs. And if you hold the same hope as I do that all of us are patriots trying to make this country truly grand and free, I hope you share this note with others.

My heart goes out to the victims and families involved in the Sandy Hook tragedy.

Corey S."

DAMNIT LEROY!!!

Spike Reaver wrote:

halestride wrote:

FATHER!!!!!

Yes son. It's me.

Oh, sh*t. Um, yeah, boss, um...I'll just go ahead and get back to work....

AWDCP wrote:

Spike Reaver wrote:

halestride wrote:

FATHER!!!!!

Yes son. It's me.

Oh, sh*t. Um, yeah, boss, um...I'll just go ahead and get back to work....

finally father, we can start to demolish human souls kraken! Awaken awaken!

As long as you don't wear any of Hercules' merchandise.



Now let the sin begin!

SIN FOR US






CRY AND BLEED!

Ghost Leader wrote:

I would be happy if religious people just stopped looking down on anyone who disagrees with them.

And just for the record, my stance on God's existence is that I don't give a damn either way.

It's not all religious people, trust me. I'm very much for separation of church and state (I'm not of an Abrahamic religion though) because I believe that if you mix the two, they are bound to be corrupted horribly and not be what they are supposed to be.

I really don't like how some (almost exclusively in the US) Christians (and others) feel the need to push their religious morals on people. It's just really annoying and very inconsiderate.

i got in trouble to day because of the stupid plague of allegiance.

halestride wrote:

i got in trouble to day because of the stupid plague of allegiance.

Pledge of allegiance, not Plague. Anyway, what'd you get in trouble for exactly? Not reciting the "under God" part of it?

Damn that Plague of Allegiance. Schools cannot force you to recite it because it endorses religion. Public schools are not allowed to do that. If you go to a private school, I'm sorry. Very sorry.

NiteKrawler wrote:

Damn that Plague of Allegiance. Schools cannot force you to recite it because it endorses religion. Public schools are not allowed to do that. If you go to a private school, I'm sorry. Very sorry.

No, the Pledge itself endorses loyalty to the United States of America, not any religion. All these references to God and religion in the Pledge and on currency had nothing to do with religion in and of itself, it was a product of the Cold War between the US and Soviet Union whereupon the US government wanted to portray the Soviets as "infidels".

Ghost Leader wrote:

NiteKrawler wrote:

Damn that Plague of Allegiance. Schools cannot force you to recite it because it endorses religion. Public schools are not allowed to do that. If you go to a private school, I'm sorry. Very sorry.

No, the Pledge itself endorses loyalty to the United States of America, not any religion. All these references to God and religion in the Pledge and on currency had nothing to do with religion in and of itself, it was a product of the Cold War between the US and Soviet Union whereupon the US government wanted to portray the Soviets as "infidels".

The pledge endorses ONLY two faiths (Judaism and Christianity), and loyalty to our nation. But it should be added that the pledge is dripping with the insinuation that our nation is a Christian one. While it is true that the US is more Christian in population than any other faith or atheism, that does not mean that our nation should be considered a "Christian" nation just as it should not be considered a "white" nation. And while one part of the "under God" change to the pledge was to belittle the "heathen communists", there was always the very real intention of blending our government with God. As Eisenhower authorized this change, he stated "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." No one can deny the endorsement of religion that our pledge currently possesses. Then again, most people in the US don't want to deny it. They are happy about it. And that is a frightening notion.

As far as I know, you don't have to recite the pledge. You can't really get in trouble for not doing it. But, if one is actually loyal to the US and opts out just because of the 'God' part, then I'd say 'Grow up and stop throwing a fit.'

Wesker's Fanboy wrote:

As far as I know, you don't have to recite the pledge. You can't really get in trouble for not doing it. But, if one is actually loyal to the US and opts out just because of the 'God' part, then I'd say 'Grow up and stop throwing a fit.'

You do not have to recite it and it is against the law for a school to punish anyone for opting out of it. If someone opts out of it because they are supporting the separation of church and state, they are showing more loyalty to our nation than anyone else!

Ghost Leader wrote:

halestride wrote:

i got in trouble to day because of the stupid plague of allegiance.

Pledge of allegiance, not Plague. Anyway, what'd you get in trouble for exactly? Not reciting the "under God" part of it?

yeah i know my tablet was guessing what i wanted to say. anyway i got introuble for not saying it at all then once of not saying undergod.

Religion is nice for advocating ethics, especially Christianity, and I certainly believe they cater to family values. Why shouldn't religion be espoused as an alternative to lessons on morality as nationalistic lessons are with history? However, I do think they should be more educational, along with exploring other religions, about beliefs, not focused on imposing them.

Is it a public school? If so, that is highly illegal and I would go to someone about it.

Limey wrote:

Religion is nice for advocating ethics, especially Christianity, and I certainly believe they cater to family values. Why shouldn't religion be espoused as an alternative to lessons on morality as nationalistic lessons are with history? However, I do think they should be more educational, along with exploring other religions, about beliefs, not focused on imposing them.

Ethics? Like how it is morally correct to stone people who work on Sunday? Or to kill adulterers? Or stone disobedient children? The Bible puts Lot on a pedestal after he gives his virgin daughters to an angry mob to be raped all night. The Bible sees that as moral. Wherever we get our morals (evolution) it is not from Christianity.

NiteKrawler wrote:

Is it a public school? If so, that is highly illegal and I would go to someone about it.

Limey wrote:

Religion is nice for advocating ethics, especially Christianity, and I certainly believe they cater to family values. Why shouldn't religion be espoused as an alternative to lessons on morality as nationalistic lessons are with history? However, I do think they should be more educational, along with exploring other religions, about beliefs, not focused on imposing them.

Ethics? Like how it is morally correct to stone people who work on Sunday? Or to kill adulterers? Or stone disobedient children? The Bible puts Lot on a pedestal after he gives his virgin daughters to an angry mob to be raped all night. The Bible sees that as moral. Wherever we get our morals (evolution) it is not from Christianity.

There's many stories in the Bible, whether those are allusions or literal anecdotes. Are they all right? No. Are they all true to modern age? No. This is why, nevertheless, various interpretations are modernized as more applicable now, concerned with productive principles in current society such as, "Do Unto Thou as Expected for Thyself"- respect for neighbors, colleagues, and fellow humans.

Do Christians stone people nowadays? No. Do they attack other religions in crusades anymore since nations civilized (civilization advancement being the relevant variable, not religion)? Whilst there may be minute issues of this, relatively undocumented as they're very scarce, they're certainly not prominent in prevalence.

Religion is free to expression, as it should be worldwide, and this includes the choice whether or not to practice the tenets. I know numerous people, primarily colleagues who believe intertwine theology into politics, who view religion as their conscience and it's beneficial to their happiness - nothing to do with an insidious inclination to conquer apostates or atheists.

Although religion extremist does exist, I do not believe it will ever supersede the USA's liberties encapsulated within the constitution. It will not become the state to a concerning extent and certainly won't define the most critical policies domestically or abroad.

Exactly, people cherry pick what they think is right out of religion while leaving most of the crap out. So why do we need religion at all? I don't need religion to know murder, stealing, raping, etc. is wrong. And the "Do unto others" thing is ripped straight from older faiths/ethical systems and is not original to Christianity at all. Meanwhile, this faith is continuing to wreak havoc on our society in the form of supporting the unequal distribution of resources which is keeping the poor poor and the rich rich and the persecution of minorities (mostly homosexuals, but women and other theists as well). So throw this religious garbage out the door and just be a good person! Nothing can be done through religion that cannot be done through secular means. But there are many terrible things happening now in the world solely because of religion.

NiteKrawler wrote:

Exactly, people cherry pick what they think is right out of religion while leaving most of the crap out. So why do we need religion at all? I don't need religion to know murder, stealing, raping, etc. is wrong. And the "Do unto others" thing is ripped straight from older faiths/ethical systems and is not original to Christianity at all. Meanwhile, this faith is continuing to wreak havoc on our society in the form of supporting the unequal distribution of resources which is keeping the poor poor and the rich rich and the persecution of minorities (mostly homosexuals, but women and other theists as well). So throw this religious garbage out the door and just be a good person! Nothing can be done through religion that cannot be done through secular means. But there are many terrible things happening now in the world solely because of religion.

Many people do need religion, which is in fact an evolved feature of our brain- faith, and it's akin to having a boss: a higher authority to hold actions as accountable. There was an interesting study recently on corporate executives and many of them regarded the consequence of 'Hell' as the reason for less destructive, egoistic conduct. Y'know the adage, "Who watches the watchers"- I think this relates to the premise above.

The sad aspects of religion (e.g. homophobia, anti-abortion, anti-women, jihad, religious supremacy) are indeed unacceptable, but I don't think it's significantly negative overall (at least in certain nations in which liberty is valued above religion) and more the people's ignorance, barely representative of the whole religion to denounce the practice(s).

Freedom of thought is nice as conceptual flexibility, and science is beautiful as understanding, but until religions are noticeably transformed into repressive doctrine, demonstrated with demographics as trends, I don't think they are any threat but on fringes which are already judged as /wrong/ by respectable adherents.

Religion isn't a cult, it's a choice and that choice is the principle the United States esteems above all else. The people people who apply religion immorally are reflecting their character, not the belief(s), and that's as you decide to be morally righteous without religion as I do too.

yeah its a public school but htis town is country and religious as hell.

If I were there, I'd help you out Hale. What happened to you (while small) is unconstitutional and your school should be ashamed.

@Limey: No one NEEDS religion. That's like saying people NEED alcohol. They only use it for comfort and security. As for the study you mentioned, I'd take it with a grain of salt. The threat of Hell has been proven to be very ineffective at policing the actions of anyone. If it were, we would not need the police. Take any police strike in history. Without police, even in very religious places (perhaps moreso!), all Hell literally breaks loose. Rioting, looting, etc. spikes! By using religion as a tool for good, it is still like shooting someone dead to save 2 people, when in actuality, no one needs to be shot dead at all to save those 2 people. I think we would agree that society as a whole must begin to find a better way than religion to cope with everyday life. As long as religion is protected behind a veil of "It has some good qualities", the deadly force that is faith will never cease.

i just brushed it off but the same time its stupid. what happen to wanting us to be ourselves and all that. well myself doesnt wana be forced to say the plague of allegiance, but whatever. one more year and im out.

The Big Bang theory is pretty flawed. It basically states that there was nothing, then there was an "explosion" and expansion. Typical Big Bang vids ask a question and then pretend to answer it.